Democracy Now is live streaming the debate which will include Rocky Anderson and Jill Stein. The station will hit pause after the 2 debaters finish a question at which time Rocky and Jill will speak. Then unpause for the next question. Etc
Amy Goodman has been interviewing about how this undemocratic commission which doesn't allow other voices came about.
time to get out my 'protection' for tonight - a bag of SmartFood to protect my brain cells from being destroyed by Romney's logic and couple of beverages to numb me just a bit! grn!
We concur. EWWWW, what a combative, smug, shallow, illogical man Romney is. But right now, MBNBC is raving on hysterically about how Romney won the debate and Obama was off his game. Maddow, Ed, Chris Matthews and others sound hysterical to me.
Romney made no sense whatsoever. His arguments were not logical; his facts were not facts. Am I crazy or have these commentators lost their minds? I'm reminded of high school football rivalries. They evidently wanted Obama to come off like Romney only even more rude, more arrogant, more repetitious of lies.
Yuck. I think Obama was terrific, thoughtful, honest, civil, someone who cares deeply about people and the promise that this country offered and offers to so many.
Well, I don't know anymore. I just don't understand how the American people could even look at Romney as someone qualified to serve in any capacity.
Jo, when you mention logic, yes. You and I could be sitting on the same couch, and we'd be saying the same things. Romney is not a bright man, not a man with integrity, not a man I would trust anywhere. He's someone who shames our country. He's all about money, status, and power, not people. I hope, hope, hope the American people can see that.
Overall? I think Mitt did mahvulusly -- for Mitt. I do NOT think he did what he HAD to do.
And if there was a *zinger* in there anywhere, must have happened while I was trying to find a better station (ran the gamut of about 6 stations, all of which kept fading out). He got no touchdowns, and didn't hit it out of the park. . . .
At one point, near the end, I though he was *sweating* suitness. . . .
This is a very good point: So far the debate has been focused on litigating Romney's plan, not Obama's record. That's bad news for the Romney campaign. — @GarrettNBCNews via TweetDeck
I can't see all nets from spin alley. But the split screen is going to hurt Romney. His wincing/smirking is constant. #current2012 — @DavidShuster via web
I'm glad for your opinions. Yes, at some point, near the end, Romney said he was all about prosperity for the American people. Yah! It's all about money.
I"m reading a wonderful book. I thought of you. It's called Earth Light: Spiritual Wisdom for an Ecological Age. It's an anthology of articles from Earth Light the magazine, started by Quakers in the '80s, but including religions from all over the world. Native American, Hindu, Hebrew, Christianity, Buddhist: articles by poets and writers from all over. I thought of you when you talked about the affinity with Quakers, and it's a beautiful and inspiring book.
I remember the last debate that Jim Lehrer hosted; again outcry, dismay. I thought he was terrific because this was a debate and he encouraged it.
Pat imo the pundits are doing that because they ALWAYS do that. they want this to be a close race, more people tune in they make more money. if it's a big Onbama blow out people tune out and their ratings and $$$$ fall. it sucks that Maddow et al are in that group but unless there was an utter failure by Romney they had their course all set for the follow up. all they needed to do was fill in the blanks with a few points that were made.
Yes, they always do that: I think you are right. I'm dismayed though because I think Obama's the best president we've had in my lifetime. He's logical, honest, principled, fair, compassionate, and represents the country I want to contribute to, be proud of, and love. I want reason, ethics, civility, and the pundits, except for Al Sharpton, and the right wing and Romney are the antithesis of that.
(a friend of hers) Yes, I am listening. I think they are both doing well. Truthfully I don't align well with either party. So I am still undecided. But it is funny to see my friends on both sides passionately defend their views. I am a waffle. proudly.
To bad no one here watched Democracy Now. It was fabulous. Jill Stein said that 85% of the voters will have access to vote Green. She and Rocky made the *country club* duo look very scary indeed. JMO
CU you next month or two. Perhaps after the foreign policy debate, which Amy will livestream I'm sure.
We need to bring back the League of Women Voters. This debate was sponsored by the corporations; Anhauser-Bush and Southwest Air being two of them. Anti-democracy in action!
I'm really disappointed in Jim Lehrer (whom I esteem) for not holding the reins of the debate. At very least, he could have made sure that President Obama got to speak last half the time. This was not a fair debate. ALL Romney had to do was get ready for the debate, while Obama as running the country. Still, I'm betting the President will be more ready at the second debate, and Romney will be more complacent.
seashell how would you possibly know that no one watched democracy now? I didn't because I only get 2 channels - cbs and nbc. but that was a pretty big assumption based upon NO facts. guess you haven't changed - just trying to stir up shit, as usual. buh bye.
Some of the commentary has startled me. Like I was watching from some parallel universe. . . . And, had a really good set of nightmares last night about what this country would look like under Mitt's Regime: every river polluted, every national forest clear cut, every flat place humming with oil rigs/or fracking rigs, every coastline black with oil globs, the air unbreathable, the water undrinkable, old people living in their kids basements, the poor dying on the streets, and Big Bird on the White House Thanksgiving table, nicely roasted.
I was surprised by the fact that Obama actually spoke 4 min. longer that RobbedMe.
The President had the facts right, Mittens didn't and I was so incensed by his "zinger" of, you can have your own plane and your own boat, but you can't have your own facts. I don't think Obama has a boat, and the plane is the peoples plane. He really wasn't prepared for the 'zingers'.
Mittens has been preping for quite a long time but he came across as agitated and jumpy. Unfortunately, he was also forceful and that hurt the Prez.
I liked his calm reiterations of the actual facts. and he's going to have to have some zingers of his own to counter mittens. On the 5 trillion that Romney has in his budget, Obama made a mild crack about oh, that's how you get rid of it - Never Mind?
Something along the lines of "you say that now, but for the past 18 months, you've been saying this... Which is it? Are you changing your stances for the debates and tomorrow you'll go back to your radical views?"
sigh... unfortunately, the RW media is going to lay it on real thick about how Romney mopped up the floor with Obama. I hope that at least intelligent people can see past the lies.
Yes, you said it, Puddle. He would also defund NPR and delete any programs that provide for the common good.
And people think he won the debate??? No, he performed, as David Axlerod said; he could have been a hockey player in his aggressiveness, but what he said was illogical, destructive, and would hurt the people in this country.
I think this is one of the few debates we've ever heard, and I wonder if Americans even know what a debate should be. We've been entertained for years with sound bytes, with declarative statements and no reasoning.
Obama provided reasoning, and it's not something people are used to. But, it's respectful, and maybe, maybe it just might catch on.
Romney is hollow, coreless, as you described him. I think many of our values are coreless, are all about money, status, and power. We must change that if humanity is to survive, and the planet itself, is to sustain life.
Finally, there's a capacity we have as humans to deny reality to our detriment. While the Green Party and third party candidates provide a focus on some very important issues, we should at least acknowledge history, reality, facts. Nader's third party bid in part cost Gore the election. A third party is inevitably a spoiler, and to deny that, to be complicit in electing the worst candidate is irresponsible at best.
But then, there's a temperament and mindset that makes the rebel, and that too is all part of humanity. It's just that we need to recognize how important it is to choose the best candidate for the future of this country and not to sabotage him or her.
Barb, I appreciate your comments. I was glad that Obama didn't respond with zingers. There's a dignity and mutual respect to stay with reasoning.
Romney's zingers were mean spirited. I even recall him raising his eyebrows and a look of derision, such as "here we go again with the sob story" as Obama described his grandmother's career with respect to working her way to the top and contributing to Social Security and Medicare.
As I've mentioned, Romney appears to me like someone who was hyperactive, all energy and not very much thought. That doesn't mean that hyperactivity prevents thought, just that Romney shows no capacity for it. Your comments about twitchy add to my perceptions.
I wondered a few times if Obama had a mic in his ear that was distracting him - because he did look distracted and not sure where he wanted to go at times. dam it must be tiring to be campaigning all across the country, leading this great nation thru some perilous tims AND be on your A game!
MR. ROMNEY: Mr. -- Mr. President, you’re entitled, as the president, to your own airplane and to your own house, but not to your own facts -- (laughter) -- all right? I’m -- I’m not going to cut education funding. I don’t have any plan to cut education funding and grants that go to people going to college. I’m planning on continuing to grow, so I’m not planning on making changes there.
(Only *Romney* gets his OWN FACTS. . . . . ) Overall, Romney said that increasing eligibility for loans could burden students in the long run.
"Hey, I'll loan you more money," Romney said. "Here let's loan you -- I don't want to overwhelm you with debts. I want you to make sure you can pay back the debts you've already got and that will happen with good jobs and that's why my five-point plan to get 12 million new jobs in this country is the best thing I can do for you and for the students of America." http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/romney-talks-education-gay-marriage-meet-candidate-event/story?id=17280340#.UG2gnN4pDeg
You all might like one of Brenda's favorite web sites margaretandhelen.com
It is two elderly, liberal women discussing politics--very good AND funny.
Before the debate the comment was made on CNN that Romney flailed his arms when agitated. I thought I saw a LOT of arm flailing. Contrary to Ann Romney's assertion that he looked for her after he made every point--I didn't see him look that way once.
I DID see President Obama flash his lovely smile in Michelle's direction. My sense is that President Obama is waiting to pounce and flash his successful foreign policy credentials.
Would Romney have had the smarts, courage and just pure guts to go after the al-Queda(sp?)leader? NO! NO! and NO!
Just some speculatin': my husband has said that when people begin to consider actually what was said, Romney won't be a winner. He lied throughout. His demeanor was adolescent.
Also, maybe with the MSNBC pundits so hysterical, they might actually provoke real participation by liberals, progressives, independents, moderates. We do have to do something.
And from Earth Light: scientist Brian Swimme talks about a diseased consciousness and culture, bent on consumerism, disregard for a living planet and all its species.
Maybe this debate where Obama didn't stoop to the immaturities of sound bytes, lies, zingers, and insults could be a sea change in the American people maturing. We sure need it.
Mitt Romney packed a lot of bull into three short sentences on education funding in Wednesday night's debate:
I’m not going to cut education funding. I don’t have any plan to cut education funding and grants that go to people going to college. I’m planning on continuing to grow, so I’m not planning on making changes there.
In May, Romney falsely claimed that public sector employment had grown by 145,000 under Obama (it had shrunk by more than 600,000) and suggested firing those 145,000 nonexistent public workers—like teachers. Does that sound like someone "planning on continuing to grow" or "not planning on making changes" in education? In June, Romney mocked President Obama for wanting to hire more teachers. Does that sound like someone who is "planning on continuing to grow"? As governor of Massachusetts, Romney slashed higher education funding:
According to the Boston Globe, fees and tuition jumped 63 percent at Massachusetts’ once-stellar system of public higher education from 2003 to 2007, as Romney slashed state funding year after year, for a total of $140 million, or 14 percent, in four years. Not surprisingly, average student debt in Massachusetts jumped 25 percent while Romney was governor. Between 2001 and 2011, tuition and fees have more than doubled at the state’s community colleges, state university and UMass campuses, but the bulk of the added burden piled up under Romney.
Is that a record that makes you believe he wouldn't cut education funding? The budget plan that made Paul Ryan a Republican star would eliminate Pell Grants for more than a million students over 10 years and reduce them for millions more. If maintaining grants to help people go to college was a priority for Romney, would he have chosen a running mate who flatly says Pell Grants are "unsustainable"?
Romney's intro to these claims on education funding was a super-zingy "Mr.—Mr. President, you’re entitled, as the president, to your own airplane and to your own house, but not to your own facts—(laughter)—all right?" But these aren't Obama's facts. The facts of Romney's own record, his words on the campaign trail, and the budget his running mate produced that Romney called "marvelous" are very clear on the direction education funding would go in a Romney presidency.
Economic Left/Right: -9.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
And Shirlee, give Brenda another biggol hug for me. I'd Lost Margaret and Helen's link in all the computer changes. Glad they're back! It was pretty quiet there for a while. And nice to see Margaret post -- she hardly ever did!
Had to laugh about the "zinger" -- it was something I used on facebook and got a lot of kudos for about a month ago: Republicans are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. . . . Since I don't think Mitt's team is reading my facebook, it must be in the zeitgeist.
Wouldn't you think that anyone here watching Jill and Rocky would speak up? Since no one spoke up, I can assume either no one here watched or are embarrassed to admit it.
IMO Jill won by a hair, with Rocky very close on her heels.
Both of them make the two others look like they don't know how to run a country...exceptinto the ground.
While O and R were debating the tangled minituae of health care,Jill and Rocky were talking about Universal Health Care and ending the wars.
I'll check back to see if anyone here wishes to watch the foreign policy debate on Democracy Now.
lol! your hubris should astonish me Judy but I've come to know you too well. you're smarter? really kiddo, that would be in the eye of the beholder.
you said that you might stop back in a couple of months - please stick to your plan. you really don't add much here other than to insult my friends.
I do thank you for alerting us to the other debate but of course you couldn't do that without trying to 1) tell us all what we should do and 2) try to make yourself feel superior. as always with you it's ALL ABOUT YOU!! you really come across as so needy when you have to have your worthiness validated by people who don't even like you anymore - thanks to your own statements.
I hope it worked for you because you sure didn't fool me. ;)
Common Dreams Progressives Pan Obama Following Dismal Debate - Common Dreams staff
Following the first national debate between President Barack Obama and Republican nominee Mitt Romney on Wednesday night, progressive journalists and commentators weighed in with their reactions.
Progressives roundly fault President Obama for being weak on defense and having no offense against the lies, distortions, and policies of Mitt Romney. In addition to conceding the poverty of Obama's performance, most progressives also lamented the narrow scope and poor moderation of the debate by PBS' Jim Lehrer.
In the end, however, as Charles Ferguson argues, it is the topics both candidates agree not to talk about and questions moderators like Lehrer refuse to ask which tell us most about how terribly uninformative modern presidential debates really are.
Jill and Rocky got to the unasked questions with sterling answers.
Prediction: There will be a third party next time around.
Ah, it's those so-called progressives again, every bit as authoritarian as the tea Partiers and just as deluded and ignorant. Well, it's all a picture of who we are. Scary, no?
Jim Lehrer gave the candidates more time for interaction than any previous debate. He let them debate instead of directing the questions and circumscribing the answers with time limits and change of subject. Not surprising though that people unused to real debate would complain.
Except, Pat, it was not debate as much as RobbedMe steamrolling over everything. I was astounded at his lack of respect for either Lehrer or Obama.
Lehrer didn't "let them debate" he had no choice. If it is structured in a certain way, and each side has carefully negotiated the parameters, then it should be that way. If they want a real debate, then they also have to agree to respect each other enough to let the other finish a thought.
I agree with you Barb, a real debate is structured, and Romney did bulldoze both Lehrer and the Prez. However, Lehrer did allow interactions which were telling.
What does it say about We the People when the winner is a liar, arrogant, rude, and disrespectful? Romney lied and lied and lied. Obama didn't take the bait to engage in a back and forth that would have benefited Romney. I'm glad for that.
When I think back to past presidential debates, I remember one liners. It says to me we have a politics full of style and bluster and little substance. We're going to get what we appreciate if we don't change our standards, me thinks.
Nixon lied about his secret plan to end the Vietnam War, and he was elected. Have we learned nothing? Character matters above all, and Romney has none. Yet, he was the winner???
Well, again, a real debate has a format and allows for interactions. We haven't yet had a real debate, I think.
haway with the lies - but created oh so many openings for the Pres over the next month an he's wasting no time getting to it! from Politico today:
President Obama wasted no time taking advantage of Mitt Romney’s web of debate lies, by calling out the numerous falsehoods that Republican nominee uttered at the first presidential debate.
OBAMA: Now, the reason I was in Denver obviously is to see all of you, and it’s always pretty, but we also had our first debate last night. And when I got on to the stage, I met this very spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney. But it couldn’t have been Mitt Romney because the real Mitt Romney has been running around the country for the last year promising $5 trillion in tax cuts that favor the wealthy. The fellow on stage last night said he didn’t know anything about that. The real Mitt Romney said we don’t need any more teachers in our classrooms, but – don’t boo, vote – but the fellow on stage last night, he loves teachers, can’t get enough of them. The Mitt Romney we all know invested in companies that were called pioneers of outsourcing jobs to other countries, but the guy on stage last night, he said that he doesn’t even know that there are such laws that encourage outsourcing. He’s never heard of them. Never heard of them. Never heard of tax breaks for companies who ship jobs overseas. He said that if it’s true, he must need a new accountant. Now, we know for sure it was not the real Mitt Romney because he seems to be doing just fine with his current accountant. So you see, the man on stage last night, he does not want to be held accountable for their real Mitt Romney’s decisions and what he’s been saying for the last year and that’s because he knows full well that we don’t want what he’s been selling for the last year. So Governor Romney may dance around his positions, but if you want to be president, you owe the American people the truth.
So here’s the truth – Governor Romney cannot pay for his $5 trillion tax plan without blowing up the deficit or sticking it to the middle class. That’s the math. We can’t afford to go down that road again. We can’t afford another round of budget-busting tax cuts for the wealthy. We can’t afford to gut out investments in education or clean energy or research and technology. We can’t afford to roll back regulations on Wall Street or on big oil companies or insurance companies. We cannot afford to double down on the same top-down economic policies that got us into this mess. That is not a plan to create jobs, that is not a plan to grow the economy, that is not change, that is a relapse. We don’t want to go back there. We’ve tried it, it didn’t work and we are not going back, we are going forward.
As an old high school debater, we were required to verify our statements with facts from reputable sources. Remember Romney's dismissing the study about how his 7 trillion dollar tax cuts didn't add up?
We weren't even allowed to use Time Magazine as a source. We had to go to nonpartisan bodies with validity and reliability.
It's sad to think of how far we've fallen from standards for truth.
Again, we saw a Romney who was a liar, who was combative, disrespectful, bullying, and an Obama who was reasonable, who was modest, who wouldn't engage in the kinds of rhetoric and insult that Romney did. Night and day in character differences. It explains a little why Clinton is Obama's Sec. of State and Bill is campaigning for him. He doesn't engage in personal vitriol. Yet, that's what We the People seem to require of a winner. Sad!
Thanks, Jo. I'm heartened to read Obama's rebuttals. Good! Now if some diehard ideologues would pay attention, and voters would register and make up their own minds.
;) here's the commentary that goes with Obama's words:
Well, that didn’t take long. When Mitt Romney decided that he was going to lie his way through the debate, he not only presented Obama with a strategic opportunity, but Romney also confirmed America’s suspicions that not a single word that comes out of his mouth publicly can be trusted. Mitt Romney stood up in front of about 50 million Americans and lied repeatedly. It is as if the Romney campaign thinks that America is that dumb, and doesn’t remember anything he said before last night.
If Obama would have confronted Romney and called out his lies, he would have risked not seeming presidential, elevating Romney to his level, and making the contest a choice between equals in the minds of some voters. Mitt Romney is trapped in a box of his own making. When Romney tries to move to the right, as when he said he would end the subsidy to PBS, he loses the center. When he moves to center by claiming that he supports hiring more teachers, he makes the right edgy.
Obama gave Romney all the rope he needed to hang himself with last night, and now the president is tightening the noose.
The fundamental question of this election is can voters trust Mitt Romney. With his performance last night, the candidate himself delivered a resounding no.
Depressing--this week's New Yorker has two articles on the super rich and their greed and influence. One was obviously a Republican, the other a Democrat. I am glad this is out there--it just makes me wonder how much power any of us has?
With those cheery words, goodnight. Actually if you want to cheer up try the margaretandhelen.com blog--wonderful!
Painful to listen to RightyRadio Hosts getting orgasmic over their "win." Pitiful, too. They slobber and spit.
Glad I have a sane place to come to. Times I have to stay away from facebook or create a family crisis, lol!
Phone line finally got reported. I realize WHY it takes me so long to do it. They act like it *can't* be them, and make you jump through hoops. . . . After 17 years, you'd think they could JUST GET IT RIGHT!!!!!
Boy oh boy -- he must REALLY want to be President, lol!
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what," Romney said in the video. "There are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it."
"Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax," Romney said, and that his role "is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."
Today, not a hundred miles from me he also said: "Well, clearly in a campaign, with hundreds if not thousands of speeches and question-and-answer sessions, now and then you're going to say something that doesn't come out right," Romney said. "In this case, I said something that's just completely wrong."
Maybe, just maybe with all the pundits declaring Romney the winner and Obama weak and listless, supporters of Obama will rise to the defense and contribute in some way. It's natural to defend someone you support, care about, think of yourself as a friend. I know I have little tolerance for detractors emotionally, though rationally I know no one is perfect and every president will make mistakes.
And, the unemployment has dropped to 7.8 percent. That's a good thing.
First dusting of snow here. The weather still feels very weird, very unstable.
56 comments:
Too cute! A smile and a laugh. Looking forward to your comments after the debates.
Howie's still foistiest!
And I'm off to find a station to listen to the pre-debate lead ins. . .
xox
Democracy Now is live streaming the debate which will include Rocky Anderson and Jill Stein. The station will hit pause after the 2 debaters finish a question at which time Rocky and Jill will speak. Then unpause for the next question. Etc
Amy Goodman has been interviewing about how this undemocratic commission which doesn't allow other voices came about.
Sea (this was a public service announcement)
thank you sea, that's nice of you.
find debate fact checkers at: http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/10/03/162245355/heres-where-to-get-your-fact-checks-during-and-after-tonights-debate?ft=1&f=1014
time to get out my 'protection' for tonight - a bag of SmartFood to protect my brain cells from being destroyed by Romney's logic and couple of beverages to numb me just a bit! grn!
HAHAHA Glad you put that up. Made me laugh out loud.
Romney already has me incensed to the point that my heart rate is up.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
R=the PERFECT example of a SUIT feeling totally entitled(sp?)!!!!
Horrible man---
We concur. EWWWW, what a combative, smug, shallow, illogical man Romney is. But right now, MBNBC is raving on hysterically about how Romney won the debate and Obama was off his game. Maddow, Ed, Chris Matthews and others sound hysterical to me.
Romney made no sense whatsoever. His arguments were not logical; his facts were not facts. Am I crazy or have these commentators lost their minds? I'm reminded of high school football rivalries. They evidently wanted Obama to come off like Romney only even more rude, more arrogant, more repetitious of lies.
Yuck. I think Obama was terrific, thoughtful, honest, civil, someone who cares deeply about people and the promise that this country offered and offers to so many.
Well, I don't know anymore. I just don't understand how the American people could even look at Romney as someone qualified to serve in any capacity.
Jo, when you mention logic, yes. You and I could be sitting on the same couch, and we'd be saying the same things. Romney is not a bright man, not a man with integrity, not a man I would trust anywhere. He's someone who shames our country. He's all about money, status, and power, not people. I hope, hope, hope the American people can see that.
Should be MSNBC. Typo, sorry.
Overall? I think Mitt did mahvulusly -- for Mitt. I do NOT think he did what he HAD to do.
And if there was a *zinger* in there anywhere, must have happened while I was trying to find a better station (ran the gamut of about 6 stations, all of which kept fading out). He got no touchdowns, and didn't hit it out of the park. . . .
At one point, near the end, I though he was *sweating* suitness. . . .
7:38 PM PT: Al Sharpton: "No doubt Mitt Romney was at his best tonight. But his best is not good enough."
This is a very good point:
So far the debate has been focused on litigating Romney's plan, not Obama's record. That's bad news for the Romney campaign.
— @GarrettNBCNews via TweetDeck
I can't see all nets from spin alley. But the split screen is going to hurt Romney. His wincing/smirking is constant. #current2012
— @DavidShuster via web
Hi Puddle,
I'm glad for your opinions. Yes, at some point, near the end, Romney said he was all about prosperity for the American people. Yah! It's all about money.
I"m reading a wonderful book. I thought of you. It's called Earth Light: Spiritual Wisdom for an Ecological Age. It's an anthology of articles from Earth Light the magazine, started by Quakers in the '80s, but including religions from all over the world. Native American, Hindu, Hebrew, Christianity, Buddhist: articles by poets and writers from all over. I thought of you when you talked about the affinity with Quakers, and it's a beautiful and inspiring book.
I remember the last debate that Jim Lehrer hosted; again outcry, dismay. I thought he was terrific because this was a debate and he encouraged it.
Well, night all.
Pat imo the pundits are doing that because they ALWAYS do that. they want this to be a close race, more people tune in they make more money. if it's a big Onbama blow out people tune out and their ratings and $$$$ fall. it sucks that Maddow et al are in that group but unless there was an utter failure by Romney they had their course all set for the follow up. all they needed to do was fill in the blanks with a few points that were made.
Hi Jo,
Yes, they always do that: I think you are right. I'm dismayed though because I think Obama's the best president we've had in my lifetime. He's logical, honest, principled, fair, compassionate, and represents the country I want to contribute to, be proud of, and love. I want reason, ethics, civility, and the pundits, except for Al Sharpton, and the right wing and Romney are the antithesis of that.
Well, really off now. I'll check in tomorrow.
From one of my Republican niece's threads:
(a friend of hers)
Yes, I am listening. I think they are both doing well. Truthfully I don't align well with either party. So I am still undecided. But it is funny to see my friends on both sides passionately defend their views. I am a waffle. proudly.
from Sea
To bad no one here watched Democracy Now. It was fabulous. Jill Stein said that 85% of the voters will have access to vote Green. She and Rocky made the *country club* duo look very scary indeed. JMO
CU you next month or two. Perhaps after the foreign policy debate, which Amy will livestream I'm sure.
We need to bring back the League of Women Voters. This debate was sponsored by the corporations; Anhauser-Bush and Southwest Air being two of them. Anti-democracy in action!
Sea
I'm really disappointed in Jim Lehrer (whom I esteem) for not holding the reins of the debate. At very least, he could have made sure that President Obama got to speak last half the time. This was not a fair debate. ALL Romney had to do was get ready for the debate, while Obama as running the country. Still, I'm betting the President will be more ready at the second debate, and Romney will be more complacent.
Ahhh, that should be TOO bad, not to bad.
My bad.
seashell how would you possibly know that no one watched democracy now? I didn't because I only get 2 channels - cbs and nbc. but that was a pretty big assumption based upon NO facts. guess you haven't changed - just trying to stir up shit, as usual. buh bye.
Wonder who won? Rocky or Jill?
Some of the commentary has startled me. Like I was watching from some parallel universe. . . . And, had a really good set of nightmares last night about what this country would look like under Mitt's Regime: every river polluted, every national forest clear cut, every flat place humming with oil rigs/or fracking rigs, every coastline black with oil globs, the air unbreathable, the water undrinkable, old people living in their kids basements, the poor dying on the streets, and Big Bird on the White House Thanksgiving table, nicely roasted.
I was surprised by the fact that Obama actually spoke 4 min. longer that RobbedMe.
The President had the facts right, Mittens didn't and I was so incensed by his "zinger" of, you can have your own plane and your own boat, but you can't have your own facts. I don't think Obama has a boat, and the plane is the peoples plane. He really wasn't prepared for the 'zingers'.
Mittens has been preping for quite a long time but he came across as agitated and jumpy. Unfortunately, he was also forceful and that hurt the Prez.
I liked his calm reiterations of the actual facts. and he's going to have to have some zingers of his own to counter mittens. On the 5 trillion that Romney has in his budget, Obama made a mild crack about oh, that's how you get rid of it - Never Mind?
Something along the lines of "you say that now, but for the past 18 months, you've been saying this... Which is it? Are you changing your stances for the debates and tomorrow you'll go back to your radical views?"
sigh... unfortunately, the RW media is going to lay it on real thick about how Romney mopped up the floor with Obama. I hope that at least intelligent people can see past the lies.
Yes, you said it, Puddle. He would also defund NPR and delete any programs that provide for the common good.
And people think he won the debate???
No, he performed, as David Axlerod said; he could have been a hockey player in his aggressiveness, but what he said was illogical, destructive, and would hurt the people in this country.
I think this is one of the few debates we've ever heard, and I wonder if Americans even know what a debate should be. We've been entertained for years with sound bytes, with declarative statements and no reasoning.
Obama provided reasoning, and it's not something people are used to. But, it's respectful, and maybe, maybe it just might catch on.
Romney is hollow, coreless, as you described him. I think many of our values are coreless, are all about money, status, and power. We must change that if humanity is to survive, and the planet itself, is to sustain life.
Finally, there's a capacity we have as humans to deny reality to our detriment. While the Green Party and third party candidates provide a focus on some very important issues, we should at least acknowledge history, reality, facts. Nader's third party bid in part cost Gore the election. A third party is inevitably a spoiler, and to deny that, to be complicit in electing the worst candidate is irresponsible at best.
But then, there's a temperament and mindset that makes the rebel, and that too is all part of humanity. It's just that we need to recognize how important it is to choose the best candidate for the future of this country and not to sabotage him or her.
Barb, I appreciate your comments. I was glad that Obama didn't respond with zingers. There's a dignity and mutual respect to stay with reasoning.
Romney's zingers were mean spirited. I even recall him raising his eyebrows and a look of derision, such as "here we go again with the sob story" as Obama described his grandmother's career with respect to working her way to the top and contributing to Social Security and Medicare.
As I've mentioned, Romney appears to me like someone who was hyperactive, all energy and not very much thought. That doesn't mean that hyperactivity prevents thought, just that Romney shows no capacity for it. Your comments about twitchy add to my perceptions.
I wondered a few times if Obama had a mic in his ear that was distracting him - because he did look distracted and not sure where he wanted to go at times. dam it must be tiring to be campaigning all across the country, leading this great nation thru some perilous tims AND be on your A game!
MR. ROMNEY: Mr. -- Mr. President, you’re entitled, as the president, to your own airplane and to your own house, but not to your own facts -- (laughter) -- all right? I’m -- I’m not going to cut education funding. I don’t have any plan to cut education funding and grants that go to people going to college. I’m planning on continuing to grow, so I’m not planning on making changes there.
(Only *Romney* gets his OWN FACTS. . . . . )
Overall, Romney said that increasing eligibility for loans could burden students in the long run.
"Hey, I'll loan you more money," Romney said. "Here let's loan you -- I don't want to overwhelm you with debts. I want you to make sure you can pay back the debts you've already got and that will happen with good jobs and that's why my five-point plan to get 12 million new jobs in this country is the best thing I can do for you and for the students of America."
http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/romney-talks-education-gay-marriage-meet-candidate-event/story?id=17280340#.UG2gnN4pDeg
http://politicker.com/2012/08/romney-blasts-student-loan-relief-plan-as-all-sorts-of-free-stuff/
You all might like one of Brenda's favorite web sites
margaretandhelen.com
It is two elderly, liberal women discussing politics--very good AND funny.
Before the debate the comment was made on CNN that Romney flailed his arms when agitated. I thought I saw a LOT
of arm flailing. Contrary to Ann Romney's assertion that he looked for her after he made every point--I didn't see him look that way once.
I DID see President Obama flash his lovely smile in Michelle's direction. My sense is that President Obama is waiting to pounce and flash his successful foreign policy credentials.
Would Romney have had the smarts, courage and just pure guts to go after the al-Queda(sp?)leader? NO! NO! and NO!
Just some speculatin': my husband has said that when people begin to consider actually what was said, Romney won't be a winner. He lied throughout. His demeanor was adolescent.
Also, maybe with the MSNBC pundits so hysterical, they might actually provoke real participation by liberals, progressives, independents, moderates. We do have to do something.
And from Earth Light: scientist Brian Swimme talks about a diseased consciousness and culture, bent on consumerism, disregard for a living planet and all its species.
Maybe this debate where Obama didn't stoop to the immaturities of sound bytes, lies, zingers, and insults could be a sea change in the American people maturing. We sure need it.
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/10/04/958801/at-last-nights-debate-romney-told-27-myths-in-38-minutes/
Mitt Romney packed a lot of bull into three short sentences on education funding in Wednesday night's debate:
I’m not going to cut education funding. I don’t have any plan to cut education funding and grants that go to people going to college. I’m planning on continuing to grow, so I’m not planning on making changes there.
In May, Romney falsely claimed that public sector employment had grown by 145,000 under Obama (it had shrunk by more than 600,000) and suggested firing those 145,000 nonexistent public workers—like teachers. Does that sound like someone "planning on continuing to grow" or "not planning on making changes" in education?
In June, Romney mocked President Obama for wanting to hire more teachers. Does that sound like someone who is "planning on continuing to grow"?
As governor of Massachusetts, Romney slashed higher education funding:
According to the Boston Globe, fees and tuition jumped 63 percent at Massachusetts’ once-stellar system of public higher education from 2003 to 2007, as Romney slashed state funding year after year, for a total of $140 million, or 14 percent, in four years. Not surprisingly, average student debt in Massachusetts jumped 25 percent while Romney was governor. Between 2001 and 2011, tuition and fees have more than doubled at the state’s community colleges, state university and UMass campuses, but the bulk of the added burden piled up under Romney.
Is that a record that makes you believe he wouldn't cut education funding?
The budget plan that made Paul Ryan a Republican star would eliminate Pell Grants for more than a million students over 10 years and reduce them for millions more. If maintaining grants to help people go to college was a priority for Romney, would he have chosen a running mate who flatly says Pell Grants are "unsustainable"?
Romney's intro to these claims on education funding was a super-zingy "Mr.—Mr. President, you’re entitled, as the president, to your own airplane and to your own house, but not to your own facts—(laughter)—all right?" But these aren't Obama's facts. The facts of Romney's own record, his words on the campaign trail, and the budget his running mate produced that Romney called "marvelous" are very clear on the direction education funding would go in a Romney presidency.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/04/1139888/-Romney-thinks-he-s-entitled-to-his-own-facts-on-education-cuts
Thanks, Puddle. As always, superb research. I'm forwarding these on, the link and our quotes and reasoning. Yay!
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Economic Left/Right: -9.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.74
And Shirlee, give Brenda another biggol hug for me. I'd Lost Margaret and Helen's link in all the computer changes. Glad they're back! It was pretty quiet there for a while. And nice to see Margaret post -- she hardly ever did!
Had to laugh about the "zinger" -- it was something I used on facebook and got a lot of kudos for about a month ago: Republicans are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts. . . . Since I don't think Mitt's team is reading my facebook, it must be in the zeitgeist.
Jo,
Wouldn't you think that anyone here watching Jill and Rocky would speak up? Since no one spoke up, I can assume either no one here watched or are embarrassed to admit it.
IMO Jill won by a hair, with Rocky very close on her heels.
Both of them make the two others look like they don't know how to run a country...exceptinto the ground.
While O and R were debating the tangled minituae of health care,Jill and Rocky were talking about Universal Health Care and ending the wars.
I'll check back to see if anyone here wishes to watch the foreign policy debate on Democracy Now.
Sea...not the same old...much smarter!:-)
lol! your hubris should astonish me Judy but I've come to know you too well. you're smarter? really kiddo, that would be in the eye of the beholder.
you said that you might stop back in a couple of months - please stick to your plan. you really don't add much here other than to insult my friends.
I do thank you for alerting us to the other debate but of course you couldn't do that without trying to 1) tell us all what we should do and 2) try to make yourself feel superior. as always with you it's ALL ABOUT YOU!! you really come across as so needy when you have to have your worthiness validated by people who don't even like you anymore - thanks to your own statements.
I hope it worked for you because you sure didn't fool me. ;)
Curious who either Jill or Rocky would caucus *with* if either actually won?
Wonder why they didn't invite Stewart Alexander?
more from Sea...front page Common Dreams
Common Dreams
Progressives Pan Obama Following Dismal Debate
- Common Dreams staff
Following the first national debate between President Barack Obama and Republican nominee Mitt Romney on Wednesday night, progressive journalists and commentators weighed in with their reactions.
Progressives roundly fault President Obama for being weak on defense and having no offense against the lies, distortions, and policies of Mitt Romney. In addition to conceding the poverty of Obama's performance, most progressives also lamented the narrow scope and poor moderation of the debate by PBS' Jim Lehrer.
In the end, however, as Charles Ferguson argues, it is the topics both candidates agree not to talk about and questions moderators like Lehrer refuse to ask which tell us most about how terribly uninformative modern presidential debates really are.
Jill and Rocky got to the unasked questions with sterling answers.
Prediction: There will be a third party next time around.
Will pass the hug along, Puddle. I checked your site first to see if you had it--didn't find it
and there we are!
Ah, it's those so-called progressives again, every bit as authoritarian as the tea Partiers and just as deluded and ignorant. Well, it's all a picture of who we are. Scary, no?
Jim Lehrer gave the candidates more time for interaction than any previous debate. He let them debate instead of directing the questions and circumscribing the answers with time limits and change of subject. Not surprising though that people unused to real debate would complain.
I guess seashell speak a no english!
Except, Pat, it was not debate as much as RobbedMe steamrolling over everything. I was astounded at his lack of respect for either Lehrer or Obama.
Lehrer didn't "let them debate" he had no choice. If it is structured in a certain way, and each side has carefully negotiated the parameters, then it should be that way. If they want a real debate, then they also have to agree to respect each other enough to let the other finish a thought.
I agree with you Barb, a real debate is structured, and Romney did bulldoze both Lehrer and the Prez. However, Lehrer did allow interactions which were telling.
What does it say about We the People when the winner is a liar, arrogant, rude, and disrespectful? Romney lied and lied and lied. Obama didn't take the bait to engage in a back and forth that would have benefited Romney. I'm glad for that.
When I think back to past presidential debates, I remember one liners. It says to me we have a politics full of style and bluster and little substance. We're going to get what we appreciate if we don't change our standards, me thinks.
Nixon lied about his secret plan to end the Vietnam War, and he was elected. Have we learned nothing?
Character matters above all, and Romney has none. Yet, he was the winner???
Well, again, a real debate has a format and allows for interactions. We haven't yet had a real debate, I think.
haway with the lies - but created oh so many openings for the Pres over the next month an he's wasting no time getting to it! from Politico today:
President Obama wasted no time taking advantage of Mitt Romney’s web of debate lies, by calling out the numerous falsehoods that Republican nominee uttered at the first presidential debate.
OBAMA: Now, the reason I was in Denver obviously is to see all of you, and it’s always pretty, but we also had our first debate last night. And when I got on to the stage, I met this very spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney. But it couldn’t have been Mitt Romney because the real Mitt Romney has been running around the country for the last year promising $5 trillion in tax cuts that favor the wealthy. The fellow on stage last night said he didn’t know anything about that. The real Mitt Romney said we don’t need any more teachers in our classrooms, but – don’t boo, vote – but the fellow on stage last night, he loves teachers, can’t get enough of them. The Mitt Romney we all know invested in companies that were called pioneers of outsourcing jobs to other countries, but the guy on stage last night, he said that he doesn’t even know that there are such laws that encourage outsourcing. He’s never heard of them. Never heard of them. Never heard of tax breaks for companies who ship jobs overseas. He said that if it’s true, he must need a new accountant. Now, we know for sure it was not the real Mitt Romney because he seems to be doing just fine with his current accountant. So you see, the man on stage last night, he does not want to be held accountable for their real Mitt Romney’s decisions and what he’s been saying for the last year and that’s because he knows full well that we don’t want what he’s been selling for the last year. So Governor Romney may dance around his positions, but if you want to be president, you owe the American people the truth.
So here’s the truth – Governor Romney cannot pay for his $5 trillion tax plan without blowing up the deficit or sticking it to the middle class. That’s the math. We can’t afford to go down that road again. We can’t afford another round of budget-busting tax cuts for the wealthy. We can’t afford to gut out investments in education or clean energy or research and technology. We can’t afford to roll back regulations on Wall Street or on big oil companies or insurance companies. We cannot afford to double down on the same top-down economic policies that got us into this mess. That is not a plan to create jobs, that is not a plan to grow the economy, that is not change, that is a relapse. We don’t want to go back there. We’ve tried it, it didn’t work and we are not going back, we are going forward.
geez! words got lost somewhere, that should begin as: 'he got away with it last night...'
As an old high school debater, we were required to verify our statements with facts from reputable sources. Remember Romney's dismissing the study about how his 7 trillion dollar tax cuts didn't add up?
We weren't even allowed to use Time Magazine as a source. We had to go to nonpartisan bodies with validity and reliability.
It's sad to think of how far we've fallen from standards for truth.
Again, we saw a Romney who was a liar, who was combative, disrespectful, bullying, and an Obama who was reasonable, who was modest, who wouldn't engage in the kinds of rhetoric and insult that Romney did. Night and day in character differences. It explains a little why Clinton is Obama's Sec. of State and Bill is campaigning for him. He doesn't engage in personal vitriol. Yet, that's what We the People seem to require of a winner. Sad!
Thanks, Jo. I'm heartened to read Obama's rebuttals. Good! Now if some diehard ideologues would pay attention, and voters would register and make up their own minds.
Always hope here.
;) here's the commentary that goes with Obama's words:
Well, that didn’t take long. When Mitt Romney decided that he was going to lie his way through the debate, he not only presented Obama with a strategic opportunity, but Romney also confirmed America’s suspicions that not a single word that comes out of his mouth publicly can be trusted. Mitt Romney stood up in front of about 50 million Americans and lied repeatedly. It is as if the Romney campaign thinks that America is that dumb, and doesn’t remember anything he said before last night.
If Obama would have confronted Romney and called out his lies, he would have risked not seeming presidential, elevating Romney to his level, and making the contest a choice between equals in the minds of some voters. Mitt Romney is trapped in a box of his own making. When Romney tries to move to the right, as when he said he would end the subsidy to PBS, he loses the center. When he moves to center by claiming that he supports hiring more teachers, he makes the right edgy.
Obama gave Romney all the rope he needed to hang himself with last night, and now the president is tightening the noose.
The fundamental question of this election is can voters trust Mitt Romney. With his performance last night, the candidate himself delivered a resounding no.
here's the ad that Obama released today - it's called 'trust'. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV5m1NxffEs&feature=player_embedded
Depressing--this week's New Yorker has two articles on the super rich and their greed and influence.
One was obviously a Republican, the other a Democrat. I am glad this is out there--it just makes me wonder how much power any of us has?
With those cheery words, goodnight.
Actually if you want to cheer up try the margaretandhelen.com blog--wonderful!
Love to all
Painful to listen to RightyRadio Hosts getting orgasmic over their "win." Pitiful, too. They slobber and spit.
Glad I have a sane place to come to. Times I have to stay away from facebook or create a family crisis, lol!
Phone line finally got reported. I realize WHY it takes me so long to do it. They act like it *can't* be them, and make you jump through hoops. . . . After 17 years, you'd think they could JUST GET IT RIGHT!!!!!
Boy oh boy -- he must REALLY want to be President, lol!
"There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what," Romney said in the video. "There are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it."
"Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax," Romney said, and that his role "is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."
Today, not a hundred miles from me he also said: "Well, clearly in a campaign, with hundreds if not thousands of speeches and question-and-answer sessions, now and then you're going to say something that doesn't come out right," Romney said. "In this case, I said something that's just completely wrong."
There ya go. And Bob's your uncle.
Morning, Puddle.
Maybe, just maybe with all the pundits declaring Romney the winner and Obama weak and listless, supporters of Obama will rise to the defense and contribute in some way. It's natural to defend someone you support, care about, think of yourself as a friend. I know I have little tolerance for detractors emotionally, though rationally I know no one is perfect and every president will make mistakes.
And, the unemployment has dropped to 7.8 percent. That's a good thing.
First dusting of snow here. The weather still feels very weird, very unstable.
gnu thread!
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